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I

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 61 for the eighteenth of

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December 2009 Richard Saunders here with

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you once again on today's episode we

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have an interview with Jack of Kent the

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famous British blogger conducted by

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Kylie Sturgis that's followed by a

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little ease dropping into the skeptics

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Christmas party we interviewed Peter

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ratbags bowditch and then we hear a

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little talk by our very own dr. Rachel

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giving an overview of the years activity

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after that we have the token skeptic a

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round up of some interesting books again

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with Kylie Sturgis followed by dr.

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Reggie reports all about thermography

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thermography and to wind up the show we

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have a little snippet from dr. H E and

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myself on Sydney radio so sit back have

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a nice glass of frosty root beer and

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I'm Carly Sturgis and it has now been 18

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months since Simon Singh was sued for

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libel in the UK he is continuing to

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fight his case and is prepared to defend

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his article for another 18 months or

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more if necessary over 20,000 people

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signed the statement to keep libel laws

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out of science but now they need more

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people to sign up at WWE will reform org

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the Jack of Kent blog authored by Alan

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Green a freelance legal writer working

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in London has been keeping people

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updated he speaks to us now for the

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skeptic zone firstly thank you for being

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on our show your side Jack of Kemp

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blogspot com features skeptical and

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liberal views on both public debates and

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legal issues what's it like being both a

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skeptic and a lawyer in the UK thank you

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for having me Oh for a long time I

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suppose I more or less kept my lawyer

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ISM and skepticism in in separate boxes

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I went along to skeptics in the pub in

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London in the olden days when it was

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just south of London Bridge and

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organised by Nick puller I spoke there

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about witchcraft law or religious hatred

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law but what I really didn't regard the

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overlap between law and skepticism as as

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really that important and then the Simon

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think a case happened and I I realized

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that my legal background could help

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skeptics and and perhaps the public

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generally understand how certain public

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debates were being closed down or

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distorted because of legal actions or or

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just legal threats or the worry about

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legal threats so being both a lawyer and

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a skeptic

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became became quite important and so

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iris led to the interest in magic of

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Kent blog and also getting Westminster

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skeptics off the ground which is a group

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devoted to law policy and media issues

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you're also very active on Twitter and

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many of us who follow you at Jack of

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Kent have been intrigued by the news at

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the case of the British Chiropractic

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Association against Simon Singh is now

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likely to make legal history due to

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changes to the court of appeal panel

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what will that mean this is incredible

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news from a lawyer's point of view Simon

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Singh has successfully obtained

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permission to appeal on a preliminary

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point in the High Court him the

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preliminary point is what is what's his

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article actually means and the reason

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why this is at a preliminary point is

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that if his article or V alleged

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defamatory statements are our sentence

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of fact he then has to justify them has

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to prove them to be correct however if

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what he said is taken to be comment all

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he has to do is show that he was

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commenting fairly on something so

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basically we the burden Simon currently

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houses because of the high court walling

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he has to show as a fact that the BCA

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were knowingly dishonest this has now

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gone to the court of appeal but is still

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only appealingly point it isn't a full

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substantive appeal of a decided case and

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so it is exceptional to have senior

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judges involved but to have the very

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senior judges

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but Lord Chief Justice and the master of

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the volumes as well as for Stephen

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steadily who has got the most incredible

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intellectual reputation to sit together

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on an appeal from a preliminary point is

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as far as i know are unprecedented what

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this means is that the significance of

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the judgment will is potentially quite

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quite quite great it doesn't

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unfortunately let us see which way the

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court of appeals going to jump it is

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conceivable that they could still come

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down against Simon Singh and and uphold

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the Mr Justice cds ruling on meaning but

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the fact that they are together means

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means that something important is is is

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a foot on the 22nd or 23rd of February's

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there will be argument on on what is

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fair comment what is justification

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especially when it can be taken that

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allegations of dishonesty are being made

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against corporations and so whatever the

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results of the Court of Appeal it does

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seem to be that it's going to be quite

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significant for journalists going

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forward there will be a lot more clarity

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in this area of law thanks thanks to

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this judgment I think everybody just you

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know it's hoping that they comes down

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quite heavily on the side of of Simon

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Singh who has been incredibly intense

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what would be a best case scenario for

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science communication if the keep libel

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laws out of science case does succeed

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that is a very interesting question I

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don't think science communication should

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have any sort of privilege by which I

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mean I don't think just because the

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person writing it or communicating

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something is a scientist or it's about a

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scientific topic it thereby is

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absolutely immune from lawsuit what I do

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think would be helpful for science

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communication or any type of

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communication is there to be a proper

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public interest defense obvious I mean

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if a communication goes to a debate or

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an issue of any public importance public

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health Public Safety scientific research

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technological change the conduct of

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international corporations then as long

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as that communication has not been done

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maliciously the velour should provide

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for a general public interest defense

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availability of this defense would have

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have a great effect it would mean that

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no longer could people bring a libel

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case and if people could no longer being

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a libel case that means that they no

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longer can threaten the libel case and

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if people cannot threaten libel cases

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then people whiting things wanting to

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publish important things things which

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other people might want to read and

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inform their decisions would not be so

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inhibited there would be very little

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liable chill and so a general public

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interest defense I think would be the

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best case scenario for the science

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communication in particular but a number

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of other forms of communication more

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generally you've also recently

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investigated the prosecution and likely

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sentencing of poor Clark who is a former

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soldier who was charged for the

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possession of a shotgun when he handed

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in his lost property and now he

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potentially faces five years

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imprisonment for doing so it's become a

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trending topic on Twitter and you

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mentioned how useful blogging is in

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raising awareness what's being the

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overall response I think the poor Clark

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case showed what difference legal

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blogging can make this was a story which

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have been reported in a local newspaper

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which hadn't been picked up by the

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mainstream media

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but one where a lot of people including

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celebrities on Twitter seemed very

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quickly to have very strong opinions it

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seemed at least counterintuitive that

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somebody was facing a mandatory five

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year sentence went on the face of it all

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they had done was go to a police station

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to to hand a weapon in and so knowing

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what sort of questions to ask what sort

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of evidence you can get I I got in touch

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with mr. Clark solicitor with the crown

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prosecution service with the local

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police force to actually get their

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statements and and put them into the

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public domain not in a particularly

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opinionated way but just actually just

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laying out the evidence so you could

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form your own view on whether there was

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an injustice in this case mr. Clark is

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going to be sentenced for a week before

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Christmas and it may well be that he it

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is found that there's exceptional

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circumstances which warrant for

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mandatory sentence of five years not

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being imposed upon posed on him my own

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personal view is is is that a whole

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combination of things have come together

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to mean that mr. Clark's facing this at

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went at a time when he's version of

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events that he found the gun at the

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bottom of his guard and unjust went to a

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police force and it it has not actually

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been challenged there's been no

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cross-examination of it at all it's the

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only version of events at play here but

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the way a number of things have come

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together you may end up serving five

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years and I think we need to think very

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carefully about the exercises of

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discretion which lead to somebody being

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put in maps back predicament as regards

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my blog more more generally I'm

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absolutely delighted that it's become so

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popular I find the blog post side divot

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are the most popular and the most

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rewarding to white and probably for most

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interesting for other people to read or

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not when I'm expect

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an opinion I'm not terribly sure my

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opinions really about more important

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than anybody else's but it's when I set

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out the information which allows

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somebody else to form their view and so

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with legal blogging on simon sings case

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on poor Clark's case on the night jack

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case about privacy of bloggers and

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hopefully others what I've been able to

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do is by explaining the law explaining

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why decisions are made in a certain way

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then people can go way and you know be

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more informed about their own views

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whatever those views those views may be

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and I think blogging adds value when it

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says something which can't be said

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elsewhere there were some fantastic

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opinionated bloggers I just don't think

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I'm terribly good at expressing opinions

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but there are also some extremely good

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science bloggers and also non-science

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bloggers in humanities who are just

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explaining things which for mainstream

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media are missing for one reason or

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another and so the response to my blog I

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think just shows that you know people

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aren't idiots people do want to to find

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out information for themselves for them

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to form form their own own views and I

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think this is something blogging can do

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a lot more easily than the mainstream

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media because there's no commercial

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pressure on you to blog and there's no

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editorial pressure you you just blog

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because you think with something which

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you can actually add to a debate which

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you've not seen done elsewhere finally

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you're working on a book called bad law

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maybe in the spirit of bad science and

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bad astronomy which will focus on how

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people seek to exploit the coercion of

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law what can you tell us about that oh

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I'm a huge fan of Bad Astronomy and and

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00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:42,799
bad science and Emmas also John Donny's

278
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:47,480
great website bad psychics I what I'm

279
00:13:54,330 --> 00:13:51,010
hoping to do with the the bad law book

280
00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:54,340
is to try and show that law is also a

281
00:14:00,000 --> 00:13:58,330
subject which one can think critically

282
00:14:04,530 --> 00:14:00,010
about it's not something that should be

283
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:04,540
just left to to to the experts and so

284
00:14:16,220 --> 00:14:10,210
I've selected eight areas witchcraft law

285
00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:16,230
blasphemy law obscenity prostitution

286
00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:19,870
sexuality and gender copywriting and

287
00:14:26,190 --> 00:14:24,430
libel where it looks on the face of it

288
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:26,200
that something's going wrong with the

289
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:30,490
law of laws not working not working well

290
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:32,770
it's working in an unsustainable way it

291
00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:35,170
would appear that the law is being used

292
00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:38,200
serve certain ulterior purposes either

293
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:40,150
normative purposes or commercial

294
00:14:45,450 --> 00:14:42,250
purposes and it's just it's just seems

295
00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:45,460
to be breaking down and what I want to

296
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:47,710
do with a book is trying to show whether

297
00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:48,970
this is the case whether they are

298
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:51,160
actually examples of bad law or whether

299
00:14:57,930 --> 00:14:55,450
they're being mistaken in fact sometimes

300
00:15:01,020 --> 00:14:57,940
even being misled by how the media

301
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:01,030
report these areas of law and if these

302
00:15:06,810 --> 00:15:04,930
are examples of bad law laws which you

303
00:15:09,540 --> 00:15:06,820
know shouldn't be there or should be in

304
00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:09,550
a very different form then how we go

305
00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:15,190
about reforming those areas of law it

306
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:17,620
must be said whiting a book is a little

307
00:15:25,740 --> 00:15:21,090
bit more time consuming than writing a

308
00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:25,750
blog but question which as you as you

309
00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:28,900
mention in the question you've posed me

310
00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:31,180
which fascinates me is help people

311
00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:34,660
resort to the corrosion of the law on

312
00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:37,990
certain issues it's terribly easy for

313
00:15:44,130 --> 00:15:40,630
for people to say this should be banned

314
00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:44,140
or that shouldn't be allowed but but

315
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:46,030
when you ban something you don't

316
00:15:49,940 --> 00:15:47,770
actually eliminate it you don't

317
00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:49,950
extinguish it it doesn't cease to be

318
00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:52,440
what it means is that any of it

319
00:15:59,660 --> 00:15:56,590
incidents are attended by fairly

320
00:16:01,910 --> 00:15:59,670
expensive often counterproductive

321
00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:01,920
consequences

322
00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:04,390
criminalizing people for example giving

323
00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:07,030
people criminal records it's actually

324
00:16:12,510 --> 00:16:08,920
probably the worst thing you can do in

325
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:12,520
many instances to actually prevent

326
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:14,560
certain things happening and and full of

327
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:17,680
a good health of society and so I'm

328
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:20,770
hoping to use a bad law to try and show

329
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:23,770
that as as Ben Goldacre says about

330
00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:25,570
science it's often a little bit more

331
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:28,750
complicated than verte and to show what

332
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:30,370
it means to sort of think critically

333
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:34,570
about about about law I'm hoping to

334
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:38,710
finish the book over the course of 2010

335
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:43,330
and and see how it goes from this it's

336
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:46,090
as I said it's quite difficult to to

337
00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:48,090
write a book especially a first book but

338
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:50,940
I've had lots of encouragement and the

339
00:16:58,140 --> 00:16:54,160
agent I've got is also simon sings agent

340
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:58,150
and also belda jurors agent and and so

341
00:17:03,240 --> 00:16:59,920
he seems to think that I've got some

342
00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:03,250
think i can offer on this and let's see

343
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:06,160
how it goes you can contact Jack of Kent

344
00:17:11,940 --> 00:17:09,130
find his blog at Jack of Kent blogspot

345
00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:11,950
com remember to check out the sense

346
00:17:17,670 --> 00:17:14,260
about science site at sense about

347
00:17:20,460 --> 00:17:17,680
science or qk and of course sign up for

348
00:17:25,699 --> 00:17:20,470
the keep libel laws out of science via

349
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:42,900
you

350
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:47,110
skeptics lunch held here in New South

351
00:17:59,400 --> 00:17:49,360
Wales and we start off by talking with

352
00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:02,670
did you tell my aura showing something

353
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:05,320
wrong even skeptics like to have a

354
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:06,880
Christmas drink in the Christmas

355
00:18:10,350 --> 00:18:08,170
celebration I think we've had a good

356
00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:10,360
year hello dr. Rachel hello dr. Richard

357
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:13,150
oh I've been promoted and you're here at

358
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:14,890
these the Australian skeptics New South

359
00:18:19,620 --> 00:18:17,770
Wales Branch Committee Christmas party

360
00:18:21,570 --> 00:18:19,630
yes i am and i haven't had breakfast

361
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:21,580
today Richard and I've had two glasses

362
00:18:26,730 --> 00:18:23,440
of champagne so perhaps you should talk

363
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,740
to someone else and we're delighted to

364
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:28,480
be joined with committeeman Peter

365
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:30,010
Baltics redbay hello red bank alone

366
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:32,110
hello we were just discussing the good

367
00:18:35,670 --> 00:18:33,700
old days when we used to go to mind/body

368
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:35,680
wallet oh we still do we still do this

369
00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:37,360
look it's still just as much fun as it

370
00:18:41,610 --> 00:18:38,950
always was although this is where less

371
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:41,620
we will be in there than the elixir it's

372
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:44,770
changed it does change but I but the we

373
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:47,290
were is this still there yeah what about

374
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:50,050
a min by we will is that when it first

375
00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:52,210
started there was three cause that would

376
00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:55,270
have been homeopath some and medical

377
00:18:59,280 --> 00:18:57,190
quackery yeah now it's crystal geysers

378
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:59,290
and all that sort of will work no I mean

379
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:00,640
there are still the medical quacks yeah

380
00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:02,050
we're very few don't know when your

381
00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:04,030
number it was wheel started we were just

382
00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:06,070
discussing the fact that when we were

383
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:09,430
there years ago actually I'm 78 years

384
00:19:13,290 --> 00:19:11,530
ago merrell dory in the Australian

385
00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:13,300
vaccinations at work had a stand they'd

386
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:15,550
understand that's right not saying that

387
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:17,110
not my daughter very brave she put on a

388
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:19,120
rat bags compact and walked up to

389
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:21,910
merrill dory and a street kid on him

390
00:19:25,470 --> 00:19:24,250
yeah information for kid I tell you what

391
00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:25,480
one thing I've noticed over the years

392
00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:28,150
when we went used to go there at that

393
00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:30,520
time they had a lot of the holder

394
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:32,830
zappers yes they send will disappeared

395
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:36,490
they've disappeared up so that's all the

396
00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:38,890
clothes hold the clock here another

397
00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:41,680
interesting thing I did I many years ago

398
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:44,670
I must apply think i spent nine and 99 I

399
00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:47,800
went up and bought a subscription to

400
00:19:52,350 --> 00:19:50,500
Nexus magazine from Duncan roads the

401
00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:52,360
editor of Nexus I remember that yellow

402
00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:54,670
and paid with my credit card he knew who

403
00:19:58,130 --> 00:19:56,140
I was so nervous almond name on the

404
00:20:01,740 --> 00:19:58,140
credit card and it must have been off

405
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:01,750
eight years later Duncan got I can only

406
00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:03,130
assume he got a skinful I Bundy one

407
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:04,300
Saturday night decided to set me

408
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:06,400
straight about everything and wrote the

409
00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:09,520
absolute mouth foaming thanks mr. email

410
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:12,310
in which he point out two things 1i was

411
00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:13,210
not smart like mmm

412
00:20:18,389 --> 00:20:17,260
the Illuminati and the other thing you

413
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:18,399
said to me was that it was really

414
00:20:21,210 --> 00:20:20,110
offended that I did produce myself optic

415
00:20:23,580 --> 00:20:21,220
to him at the mind-body-spirit festival

416
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:23,590
oh really and now Nexus haven't been

417
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:26,110
back since then and I've been waiting I

418
00:20:28,919 --> 00:20:27,730
want to make a point of it but next time

419
00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:28,929
Nexus were at the mind-body-spirit

420
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:30,760
festival I'm going to make Duncan happy

421
00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:32,710
by going up and introducing myself to

422
00:20:36,090 --> 00:20:34,270
him apparently this upset him so much

423
00:20:39,690 --> 00:20:36,100
it'll spoke to me and didn't know who I

424
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:39,700
was I see what the next one buddy wallet

425
00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:41,610
we go to which will be nigh guess main

426
00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:44,200
2010 I think it's amazing I made you

427
00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:46,809
something we're going to have in tow

428
00:20:53,370 --> 00:20:50,049
people from choice magazine x1 yeah I'm

429
00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:53,380
also thinking of having bought a buying

430
00:20:57,810 --> 00:20:55,990
Oh sparkling on what they call their I

431
00:21:00,029 --> 00:20:57,820
was cool there something about the cafe

432
00:21:01,529 --> 00:21:00,039
well they're little speakers come here

433
00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:01,539
little speakers corner not the main

434
00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:05,049
stage and and what I'm going to do is do

435
00:21:08,399 --> 00:21:06,940
kinesiology and stuff like that is yeah

436
00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:08,409
and see if I can get away with it and I

437
00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:11,470
feel it of course anybody's mind body

438
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:12,580
spirit krysta for listening for this

439
00:21:18,539 --> 00:21:16,330
please block your ears I just think like

440
00:21:20,610 --> 00:21:18,549
it actually get away with doing how much

441
00:21:22,260 --> 00:21:20,620
people can push again now it costs me a

442
00:21:24,570 --> 00:21:22,270
business cost me a few bucks I presume

443
00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:24,580
to buy the spot we're not a what what

444
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:26,020
are you going to use is the magic thing

445
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:27,760
that that improves people's balance or

446
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:32,320
strength probably equal it's fine if

447
00:21:36,659 --> 00:21:34,570
they hold that it'll work better OIC see

448
00:21:38,490 --> 00:21:36,669
so you're going to say that the naughty

449
00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:38,500
paintings oh yeah in their point of view

450
00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:40,809
oh well as I pointed out in my stage

451
00:21:44,820 --> 00:21:43,240
show I actually do this yeah and I use a

452
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:44,830
packet of sugar and a packet of equal

453
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:46,690
yeah and i show how with sugar their

454
00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:47,890
arms are really strong and with the

455
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:49,960
equal armed really weak yeah well I give

456
00:21:54,210 --> 00:21:51,370
a presentation to the New South Wales

457
00:21:57,330 --> 00:21:54,220
diet soft drink Association funnily

458
00:21:59,180 --> 00:21:57,340
enough it works the other way right back

459
00:22:01,680 --> 00:21:59,190
how are you going to debunk it though

460
00:22:03,899 --> 00:22:01,690
you're gonna say tada it's all nonsense

461
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:03,909
all I want to see whether I can actually

462
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:06,490
get away with putting on an act like

463
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:08,559
that I'm not gonna try and quite

464
00:22:13,169 --> 00:22:10,960
confusing them just want to see whether

465
00:22:15,779 --> 00:22:13,179
I can get away with at the

466
00:22:17,940 --> 00:22:15,789
mind-body-spirit festival being accepted

467
00:22:19,889 --> 00:22:17,950
as somebody who has some point of we

468
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:19,899
were medical treatment I don't see that

469
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:22,090
that's much of a challenge because of

470
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:23,590
course you'd be able to get away with it

471
00:22:27,299 --> 00:22:24,850
look at the stuff that's already there

472
00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:27,309
is all gibberish and nonsense i'm

473
00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:29,529
planning to be much more extreme than

474
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:32,620
those people that I one day I'm going to

475
00:22:39,779 --> 00:22:37,840
money i will make claims that would of

476
00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:39,789
course all the clarks supporters to say

477
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:44,590
you sure why do I possible I guess it is

478
00:22:49,289 --> 00:22:47,770
it is I've actually got until only a

479
00:22:52,350 --> 00:22:49,299
kegel ever seen alternative medicine

480
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:52,360
people think doubt some other form of

481
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:55,450
alternative medicine when i was on a

482
00:22:59,370 --> 00:22:57,010
forum and some God turned up and here

483
00:23:01,320 --> 00:22:59,380
was a raw food enthusiast that is all

484
00:23:03,029 --> 00:23:01,330
food should be raw because we aren't

485
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:03,039
near to each stock and he came up with a

486
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:04,450
classic with the incredible statement

487
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:07,630
where he said that and this week as an

488
00:23:12,629 --> 00:23:09,850
example of the effect of cooking food on

489
00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:12,639
society and what it was was menstruation

490
00:23:17,580 --> 00:23:15,580
and he said that this was evidence that

491
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:17,590
women were eating correctly and that if

492
00:23:21,149 --> 00:23:18,970
they went with a raw food diet it would

493
00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:21,159
stop and I there were alternative

494
00:23:25,379 --> 00:23:23,830
physical y-you pondo I can give you a

495
00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:25,389
diet in three weeks it'll stop it but

496
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,600
you're dead actually people did quest

497
00:23:32,220 --> 00:23:30,159
him and said are you sure they didn't

498
00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:32,230
say this is rubbish they said are you

499
00:23:37,010 --> 00:23:35,470
sure of our pattern and he said yes now

500
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:37,020
I've already written off as a loon

501
00:23:43,169 --> 00:23:39,850
apparently other people live tiny seed

502
00:23:44,909 --> 00:23:43,179
of doubt mainly from women strangely

503
00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:44,919
that but that was the only time I've

504
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:48,220
ever seen any day any doubt it's it's

505
00:23:54,330 --> 00:23:49,690
just bizarre today one of the things

506
00:23:56,580 --> 00:23:54,340
they will do they talk about how I now

507
00:23:58,409 --> 00:23:56,590
medical people they used to purge people

508
00:24:00,990 --> 00:23:58,419
and glued them yeah we don't do that

509
00:24:02,610 --> 00:24:01,000
anymore like George Washington's aspirin

510
00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:02,620
operative word is used to well that's

511
00:24:07,139 --> 00:24:04,270
how George Washington medicine he was

512
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:07,149
bled to death that's right yeah but the

513
00:24:12,389 --> 00:24:09,850
difference between science and other

514
00:24:13,650 --> 00:24:12,399
forms of human activity is that science

515
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:13,660
doesn't know everything and will change

516
00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:16,510
things been there and I knew too when

517
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:18,280
the two the two things that people would

518
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:20,110
scientists will say as CalPERS Liske

519
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:21,490
said on television the other night the

520
00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:23,590
two things aside after he's saying is I

521
00:24:32,340 --> 00:24:28,660
was wrong and we'll we'll try that again

522
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:32,350
yeah but pseudoscience never does that

523
00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:35,530
and to their medicine certainly there's

524
00:24:39,030 --> 00:24:36,700
no way and that's why you find the

525
00:24:40,650 --> 00:24:39,040
people will accept for example totally

526
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:40,660
contradictory treatments the same thing

527
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:42,430
x challenged people once with five

528
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:45,250
absolutely totally contradictory cancer

529
00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:47,530
cures five people who said this is the

530
00:24:52,260 --> 00:24:49,870
only cause of cancer and this is the

531
00:24:54,030 --> 00:24:52,270
only cure and I said tell me which one

532
00:24:55,650 --> 00:24:54,040
you think are quacks here's a camel or

533
00:24:57,540 --> 00:24:55,660
better and they all said all of them

534
00:24:59,100 --> 00:24:57,550
none of them are it's not if you're a

535
00:25:00,540 --> 00:24:59,110
supporter of this person and you must

536
00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:00,550
believe this other person over here is

537
00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:04,870
wrong no they must all be right I'm

538
00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:07,000
sorry it can't all be right at the end

539
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:08,470
of the day ratbag if you make up

540
00:25:12,570 --> 00:25:10,570
how do you remember what you made up

541
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:12,580
before it's very difficult to keep track

542
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:14,530
of the nonces that you've fabricated

543
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:16,630
over the years isn't it it is but I

544
00:25:20,820 --> 00:25:19,090
actually folks we've been left behind

545
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:20,830
because all the others are running into

546
00:25:25,650 --> 00:25:23,290
our room there where our lunches right

547
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:25,660
back how can people go to your website

548
00:25:31,020 --> 00:25:27,730
where should they go I should go to ww

549
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:31,030
at bags calm ratbags calm that's the

550
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:33,370
place the main part of it the weekly

551
00:25:37,260 --> 00:25:35,170
magazine is called the Millennium

552
00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:37,270
Project and you it's called that because

553
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:39,670
we started not at 99 and the idea was to

554
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:41,650
get a thousand sites i didn't like all

555
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:44,650
up by the end of 1999 and the thousand

556
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:46,090
plan went up on in december the 31st

557
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:47,410
that year because we were hoping you

558
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:48,640
assumed that maybe there was not going

559
00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:51,130
to be a tomorrow hahaha i had to get it

560
00:26:01,440 --> 00:25:54,070
finished in time ratbags dot-com thanks

561
00:26:06,039 --> 00:26:03,760
and I think now is the time to sort of

562
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:06,049
reflect on that and think about what

563
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:07,520
we've achieved because we've all worked

564
00:26:11,860 --> 00:26:10,370
very very hard and sometimes you get

565
00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:11,870
comments from people saying well you go

566
00:26:16,150 --> 00:26:13,340
to skip this in the pub we wouldn't be

567
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:16,160
everyone else do you do and I think that

568
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:17,840
your glean from this little overview

569
00:26:23,049 --> 00:26:20,330
that we have done a lot of workers years

570
00:26:26,289 --> 00:26:23,059
so first of all I wanted to start off by

571
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,299
saying welcome to 10 again our team is

572
00:26:32,350 --> 00:26:28,400
our new at eternity and elder who has

573
00:26:34,419 --> 00:26:32,360
been doing a layout for the magazine the

574
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:34,429
layout and the mag this year has just

575
00:26:45,730 --> 00:26:43,760
been amazing we had them a couple of

576
00:26:48,130 --> 00:26:45,740
issues that were done early on in the

577
00:26:50,260 --> 00:26:48,140
year Richard started off by hopping

578
00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:50,270
Karen and then there was a period where

579
00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:52,700
Karen wasn't here anymore so Richard

580
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:56,750
myself and Iran and Kylie did a lot of

581
00:27:00,970 --> 00:26:58,850
the work including all the editorial

582
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:00,980
staff the layout and the whole and Steve

583
00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:03,410
Roberts as well was yeah seminole and

584
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:05,750
helping us out with that we've also had

585
00:27:08,590 --> 00:27:07,010
some new members to the committee this

586
00:27:11,710 --> 00:27:08,600
year and i'm pleased to say that it's a

587
00:27:13,330 --> 00:27:11,720
girl so we welcome Joe who's not here

588
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:13,340
today because she's in New York at the

589
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:15,440
moment but I'm it's great to have more

590
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:17,210
women on the committee because skeptics

591
00:27:20,650 --> 00:27:18,650
have been criticized for not having

592
00:27:22,539 --> 00:27:20,660
enough women some of the notable

593
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:22,549
successes that we've had this year of

594
00:27:27,610 --> 00:27:24,110
course we've got to mention the avn

595
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:27,620
first up this started earlier in the

596
00:27:32,530 --> 00:27:29,840
year with the channel 7 debate which

597
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:32,540
many of you saw on channel 7 Sunday

598
00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:36,110
night this resulted in a letter that was

599
00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:39,049
written to Tony and David by a couple of

600
00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:40,580
people from the committee and of course

601
00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:43,700
tiny detail this last week's convention

602
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:46,910
and then this resulted in a huge

603
00:27:51,370 --> 00:27:48,799
groundswell of people getting involved

604
00:27:54,220 --> 00:27:51,380
including dr. Phil plates including Ben

605
00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:54,230
Goldacre from the UK the skeptics guide

606
00:27:57,070 --> 00:27:55,070
to the universe

607
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:57,080
is the biggest skeptical podcast in the

608
00:28:00,820 --> 00:27:58,490
world they have something like forty

609
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:00,830
thousand listeners a week they

610
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:02,690
interviewed me about the situation with

611
00:28:06,999 --> 00:28:05,600
the antibats lobby in Australia and then

612
00:28:10,029 --> 00:28:07,009
of course you'll remember that dick

613
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:10,039
smith came aboard back in August to pay

614
00:28:13,409 --> 00:28:11,840
for an ad that went into the Australian

615
00:28:16,419 --> 00:28:13,419
magazine which went all over the nation

616
00:28:19,419 --> 00:28:16,429
and this was really good publicity for

617
00:28:22,419 --> 00:28:19,429
us dick was kind enough to do a lot of

618
00:28:23,980 --> 00:28:22,429
radio about this and one of the things I

619
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:23,990
remember him particularly saying was

620
00:28:29,999 --> 00:28:27,049
they should put anti backs on all of

621
00:28:32,830 --> 00:28:30,009
their material in big fat work for you

622
00:28:34,899 --> 00:28:32,840
yeah so thank you for to dig for helping

623
00:28:36,159 --> 00:28:34,909
us out with that another thing of note

624
00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:36,169
is that our international reputation

625
00:28:41,860 --> 00:28:39,620
this year has been recognized in a huge

626
00:28:44,350 --> 00:28:41,870
way there's been a number of us going to

627
00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:44,360
conferences overseas Richard and Iran

628
00:28:50,169 --> 00:28:47,809
which Tam in July in Las Vegas Kylie

629
00:28:51,669 --> 00:28:50,179
myself Richard and steve roberts went to

630
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:51,679
Anne Martin bridge stock went to

631
00:28:59,230 --> 00:28:56,000
dragoncon in September in Atlanta and we

632
00:29:01,810 --> 00:28:59,240
all did talks and panels and met lots of

633
00:29:03,639 --> 00:29:01,820
lots of fellow skeptics I also went to

634
00:29:05,369 --> 00:29:03,649
nexus the north eastern conference for

635
00:29:08,499 --> 00:29:05,379
science and skepticism in New York City

636
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:08,509
in September and then also divorced and

637
00:29:12,970 --> 00:29:11,330
skeptics and apart and on top of that

638
00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:12,980
Richard and I have done with several

639
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:15,830
tours to Melbourne and to Perth to do

640
00:29:21,629 --> 00:29:18,529
our talks about skepticism and about

641
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:21,639
alternative medicine so we've been

642
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:23,809
really getting ourselves out there this

643
00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:25,490
year and letting people know that we're

644
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:27,350
out we're here and we're active and we

645
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:30,799
want to tell them about our stuff just

646
00:29:35,499 --> 00:29:33,289
briefly on the whole alien thing we've

647
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:35,509
also had a big success with the edge to

648
00:29:39,159 --> 00:29:37,039
Mercy complain that was done by from the

649
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:39,169
cloud and we've now got an army of

650
00:29:42,970 --> 00:29:40,850
supporters around the world that are

651
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:42,980
prepared and ready to go to fight

652
00:29:47,139 --> 00:29:44,720
something if we ever have a reason to

653
00:29:49,379 --> 00:29:47,149
get them mobilized I recently got some

654
00:29:52,419 --> 00:29:49,389
news and I think ratbag knows about this

655
00:29:57,369 --> 00:29:52,429
one of our

656
00:29:59,889 --> 00:29:57,379
now got a response from the office of

657
00:30:01,930 --> 00:29:59,899
liquid gaming and racing about the

658
00:30:03,549 --> 00:30:01,940
alleged charity license that the

659
00:30:04,629 --> 00:30:03,559
afternoon has and didn't have for a

660
00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:04,639
number of years because they didn't pay

661
00:30:11,739 --> 00:30:07,369
their dues so they're taking a battering

662
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:11,749
from every single angle and recently in

663
00:30:14,950 --> 00:30:13,610
the last few weeks I've noticed in the

664
00:30:17,259 --> 00:30:14,960
rat bag might be able to back me up on

665
00:30:18,669 --> 00:30:17,269
this they started to sort of fall apart

666
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:18,679
a little bit and they're becoming very

667
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:19,970
rattled and it's interesting because

668
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:21,830
normally when there's an article written

669
00:30:25,869 --> 00:30:24,080
about them or against them they get all

670
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:25,879
their people together to write responses

671
00:30:29,799 --> 00:30:27,710
and comments and they've stopped doing

672
00:30:31,869 --> 00:30:29,809
that in the last month or they're under

673
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:31,879
pressure and that's largely to do with

674
00:30:37,029 --> 00:30:33,289
us so we should congratulate ourselves

675
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:37,039
for that skeptics in the park which was

676
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:38,690
set up by Richard Saunders about five

677
00:30:44,769 --> 00:30:43,039
six years ago now in Sydney when we went

678
00:30:47,019 --> 00:30:44,779
to Perth back in May we founded one in

679
00:30:49,169 --> 00:30:47,029
perth at the flying scotsman which is

680
00:30:51,340 --> 00:30:49,179
now going from strength to strength

681
00:30:54,609 --> 00:30:51,350
locally we get about 80 participants

682
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:54,619
every month and of note is that in the

683
00:30:58,299 --> 00:30:56,690
last four months every speaker we've had

684
00:31:01,720 --> 00:30:58,309
at skeptics in the pub has been a female

685
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:01,730
which is great apart from over well he's

686
00:31:08,529 --> 00:31:04,850
a bit of a girl sometimes clinic and

687
00:31:11,499 --> 00:31:08,539
also they weren't supposed to please

688
00:31:12,820 --> 00:31:11,509
look exactly like most ugly no and

689
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:12,830
that's it you know that's another thing

690
00:31:16,539 --> 00:31:14,570
to mention is that every month this

691
00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:16,549
month this year we've had a speaker at

692
00:31:19,779 --> 00:31:18,289
skeptic to the pub including rat Baker

693
00:31:22,899 --> 00:31:19,789
stepped up at the last minute so thank

694
00:31:25,060 --> 00:31:22,909
you Kylie Sturgis also founded that

695
00:31:27,879 --> 00:31:25,070
skeptics in the pub in Auckland on her

696
00:31:31,899 --> 00:31:27,889
way to or from dragoncon which is

697
00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:31,909
fantastic the website we've got a brand

698
00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:33,830
new website and that's been up and

699
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:36,049
running for a couple of months now three

700
00:31:41,980 --> 00:31:39,200
or four months it's have lots of good

701
00:31:43,659 --> 00:31:41,990
responses it's fresh in you and we went

702
00:31:45,850 --> 00:31:43,669
with the new system we're able to update

703
00:31:47,529 --> 00:31:45,860
at whatever time of day it is but in

704
00:31:48,669 --> 00:31:47,539
time lights or something

705
00:31:50,590 --> 00:31:48,679
it happens and skepticism

706
00:31:53,169 --> 00:31:50,600
internationally we can get on there and

707
00:31:54,999 --> 00:31:53,179
let the world know about it through this

708
00:31:56,859 --> 00:31:55,009
has been great for alerting people to

709
00:31:58,629 --> 00:31:56,869
the Simon Singh stuff which happened

710
00:32:01,509 --> 00:31:58,639
recently and then we also had our own

711
00:32:03,099 --> 00:32:01,519
complaint from a chiropractor which was

712
00:32:05,129 --> 00:32:03,109
dismissed by the H Triple C which we

713
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:05,139
could keep updating on the website so

714
00:32:10,509 --> 00:32:07,190
that's been really good in keeping the

715
00:32:12,219 --> 00:32:10,519
public aware of what we're doing of

716
00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:12,229
course we should also just brag a little

717
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:13,369
bit because this year we've got an

718
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:15,289
interview with Stephen Fry for the

719
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:17,330
interview for the magazine and for the

720
00:32:21,609 --> 00:32:19,279
podcast and we're the only skeptical

721
00:32:23,889 --> 00:32:21,619
podcast and magazine to get Stephen Fry

722
00:32:26,739 --> 00:32:23,899
so we're very proud of that in terms of

723
00:32:28,629 --> 00:32:26,749
outreach locally we now have a

724
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:28,639
semi-regular or we have a regular you

725
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:32,570
get a fortnight on radio 2 GB where we

726
00:32:38,289 --> 00:32:35,809
take on talk back from some nut bags and

727
00:32:39,969 --> 00:32:38,299
some not so not bad people but I don't

728
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:39,979
know if you guys have had any of it I

729
00:32:43,749 --> 00:32:41,840
think Richards archived a lot of it so

730
00:32:47,229 --> 00:32:43,759
you can hear it on the website skeptics

731
00:32:49,719 --> 00:32:47,239
don't come today we get people asking us

732
00:32:51,729 --> 00:32:49,729
about ghosties and the UFOs but also

733
00:32:55,899 --> 00:32:51,739
what is the human body made of Richard

734
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:55,909
what is it made of feelings right slips

735
00:33:02,289 --> 00:33:00,559
and child no authority kid 1 yeah and of

736
00:33:03,969 --> 00:33:02,299
course all of us have been really

737
00:33:05,649 --> 00:33:03,979
involved to talk to journalists getting

738
00:33:08,979 --> 00:33:05,659
on television women we can wrap bags

739
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:08,989
being on TV a lot Richard's been on TV a

740
00:33:12,639 --> 00:33:11,090
lot we've all got our faces out there

741
00:33:15,849 --> 00:33:12,649
and I think we need to do that more so

742
00:33:18,479 --> 00:33:15,859
next year challenges for next year I

743
00:33:21,849 --> 00:33:18,489
think one of the things we need to do

744
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:21,859
really soon is to increase our subs and

745
00:33:26,109 --> 00:33:23,090
one of the things we've been talking to

746
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:26,119
tim about today is may be on to GV

747
00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:28,849
offering listening as a discount on our

748
00:33:31,749 --> 00:33:30,289
subscription of maybe twenty five

749
00:33:34,539 --> 00:33:31,759
percent off of something if you're quite

750
00:33:36,460 --> 00:33:34,549
to GV so we want to get more people to

751
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:36,470
subscribe to the madness it's a really

752
00:33:41,139 --> 00:33:38,809
really good mag and we producing really

753
00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:41,149
great staff we also need to increase our

754
00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:42,889
public profile of course we'd need to do

755
00:33:46,239 --> 00:33:44,809
this all the time but in the last few

756
00:33:48,409 --> 00:33:46,249
months Richard and I have been talking

757
00:33:49,879 --> 00:33:48,419
to choice magazine

758
00:33:52,220 --> 00:33:49,889
they were very impressed with what we're

759
00:33:54,409 --> 00:33:52,230
doing they're very interested in working

760
00:33:56,090 --> 00:33:54,419
with us further our level so expressed

761
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:56,100
interesting come into my body wallet

762
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:57,690
with us the next time it comes around

763
00:34:03,919 --> 00:34:01,200
which would be great we also like to see

764
00:34:05,779 --> 00:34:03,929
the avian kind of melt like the witch in

765
00:34:07,159 --> 00:34:05,789
The Wizard of Oz you know what the

766
00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:07,169
Wicked Witch of the West when she kind

767
00:34:11,720 --> 00:34:10,260
of has my heart and of course some we're

768
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:11,730
very pleased to announce that Christie

769
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:13,530
Wilson will be on the committee as of

770
00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:18,770
next year so that'll be fantastic and I

771
00:34:24,319 --> 00:34:21,960
also want to thank Phillip very much Tim

772
00:34:26,809 --> 00:34:24,329
for being instrumental in organizing

773
00:34:46,889 --> 00:34:26,819
today's function and that's all for me

774
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:49,540
welcome to the token skeptic roundup of

775
00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:52,550
great books to get from 2009 get them

776
00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:53,750
for someone else during this holiday

777
00:34:58,359 --> 00:34:55,730
season I'll catch up on some thinking

778
00:35:00,609 --> 00:34:58,369
you might have missed this year has been

779
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:00,619
an excellent one for new books some of

780
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:03,530
my favorites include super sense why we

781
00:35:07,569 --> 00:35:05,570
believe in the unbelievable by Bruce am

782
00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:07,579
hood the skeptic zone interview is on

783
00:35:13,359 --> 00:35:09,800
episode 30 and you can read it yourself

784
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:13,369
in the next UK skeptic magazine beyond

785
00:35:17,950 --> 00:35:15,440
belief science skepticism and the

786
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,960
paranormal by dr. Martin bridge stock it

787
00:35:21,310 --> 00:35:19,520
was launched at the recent Australian

788
00:35:24,910 --> 00:35:21,320
skeptics national conference to great

789
00:35:27,220 --> 00:35:24,920
acclaim 59 seconds think a little change

790
00:35:29,290 --> 00:35:27,230
a lot dr. Richard Wiseman is about to

791
00:35:31,540 --> 00:35:29,300
tour the USA with this book so keep an

792
00:35:33,130 --> 00:35:31,550
eye out for him stateside there's the

793
00:35:35,470 --> 00:35:33,140
very thought provoking and debate

794
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:35,480
inspiring unscientific America how

795
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:37,310
scientific illiteracy threatens our

796
00:35:41,859 --> 00:35:39,290
future by chris mooney and cheryl

797
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:41,869
Kirschenbaum dr. cars get fact is a

798
00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:42,890
definite for the young and

799
00:35:45,819 --> 00:35:44,390
young-at-heart it's an excellent

800
00:35:48,099 --> 00:35:45,829
discussion of a range of scientific

801
00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:48,109
questions and of course there's the

802
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:50,300
greatest show on earth the evidence for

803
00:35:55,420 --> 00:35:53,150
evolution by richard dawkins ones that

804
00:35:58,510 --> 00:35:55,430
you might have missed pseudoscience are

805
00:36:00,370 --> 00:35:58,520
critical encyclopedia by brian regal it

806
00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:00,380
spans the full spectrum of scientific

807
00:36:04,059 --> 00:36:02,000
and non-scientific pursuits from

808
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:04,069
chemistry biology psychology and

809
00:36:08,349 --> 00:36:06,050
medicine to eugenics religion

810
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:08,359
cryptozoology the occult and paranormal

811
00:36:13,359 --> 00:36:10,880
activities don't be such a scientist

812
00:36:16,059 --> 00:36:13,369
talking substance in an age of style by

813
00:36:18,099 --> 00:36:16,069
Randy Olson PhD whose documentary a

814
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:18,109
flock of dodos was screened at the

815
00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:19,730
Australian skeptics National prevention

816
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:23,660
in Adelaide denying AIDS conspiracy

817
00:36:28,809 --> 00:36:25,970
theories pseudoscience and human tragedy

818
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:28,819
is vice FC Cashman and you should also

819
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:31,250
check out denialism how a rational

820
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:32,930
thinking hinders scientific progress

821
00:36:38,319 --> 00:36:35,210
harms the planet and threatens our lives

822
00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:38,329
by Michael Specter voodoo histories the

823
00:36:42,609 --> 00:36:40,220
role of the conspiracy theory in shaping

824
00:36:44,380 --> 00:36:42,619
modern history by David arama is a

825
00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:44,390
great overview of many popular

826
00:36:48,579 --> 00:36:46,609
conspiracy claims and don't forget to

827
00:36:51,730 --> 00:36:48,589
subscribe to skeptical magazines such as

828
00:36:54,109 --> 00:36:51,740
skeptical Inquirer the UK skeptic the

829
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,119
u.s. skeptic at skeptic calm

830
00:37:00,319 --> 00:36:56,640
an Australian skeptics skeptic found out

831
00:37:02,150 --> 00:37:00,329
skeptics calm I you finally the popular

832
00:37:04,609 --> 00:37:02,160
science and skepticism poultry blog

833
00:37:07,009 --> 00:37:04,619
called the digital cuttlefish has a

834
00:37:10,099 --> 00:37:07,019
volume two out and they are giving away

835
00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:10,109
both volumes for free as a PDF they can

836
00:37:15,049 --> 00:37:11,670
be downloaded thanks to digital

837
00:37:16,789 --> 00:37:15,059
cuddlefish blogspot com on the blog pod

838
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:16,799
black catch you can find a post called

839
00:37:20,809 --> 00:37:18,900
skeptics guide to getting good stuff

840
00:37:22,339 --> 00:37:20,819
this holiday season there you should

841
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:22,349
check out the efforts to get tim minchin

842
00:37:27,650 --> 00:37:24,960
single for white wine in the Sun into

843
00:37:29,299 --> 00:37:27,660
the top 40 this season there's also the

844
00:37:31,549 --> 00:37:29,309
here comes science album by they might

845
00:37:34,609 --> 00:37:31,559
be giants which I got as a present for a

846
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,619
friend's new baby this year Ricky B and

847
00:37:38,839 --> 00:37:36,480
know these signs friendly jewelry and

848
00:37:40,970 --> 00:37:38,849
shirts are available and the forged DVD

849
00:37:43,489 --> 00:37:40,980
edition of Macbeth directed by Aaron

850
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:43,499
Posner & Teller of Penn & Teller is now

851
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:47,730
out you can find out more at www calm

852
00:38:00,109 --> 00:37:49,650
and keep an eye out for even more great

853
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:02,550
this is desiree she'll host of

854
00:38:07,050 --> 00:38:04,810
skeptically speaking check out our

855
00:38:11,010 --> 00:38:07,060
website at skeptically speaking calm and

856
00:38:14,790 --> 00:38:11,020
listen to us live on CJ sr 88.5 FM in

857
00:38:20,010 --> 00:38:14,800
Edmonton Alberta Canada I now return you

858
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:20,020
to the skeptic zone crikey this is

859
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:23,410
Richard Saunders from down under former

860
00:38:31,050 --> 00:38:26,880
telling celebrity current podcaster and

861
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:31,060
future bushranger I'm coming all the way

862
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:34,170
across the pond to visit you Yanks in

863
00:38:41,370 --> 00:38:37,330
California to tell you all about my

864
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:41,380
favorite podcast skep tide I'm also

865
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:44,609
going to introduce you to fosters beer

866
00:38:51,450 --> 00:38:48,010
I'll yabber all about all sorts of

867
00:38:53,940 --> 00:38:51,460
things and we might even have a yarn so

868
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:53,950
I hope you all log in with your ears

869
00:39:01,859 --> 00:38:57,910
flapping skeptics in the pub hosted by

870
00:39:07,950 --> 00:39:01,869
skeptics in the OC Saturday second a

871
00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:07,960
January 2010 at 19 o'clock at 7pm for

872
00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:11,560
you Yabo's at Muldoon's irish pub in

873
00:39:21,820 --> 00:39:15,400
Newport Beach California join me for a

874
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:25,190
now it's time for dr. Rachel reports

875
00:39:33,710 --> 00:39:30,780
with dr. Rachel Dunlop hello everyone

876
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:33,720
and welcome to dr. Richie reports this

877
00:39:37,340 --> 00:39:35,490
week I'm going to tell you about another

878
00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:37,350
one of those miracle treatments which

879
00:39:43,610 --> 00:39:39,900
your doctor won't it's safe effective

880
00:39:45,830 --> 00:39:43,620
with no side effects or risks and unlike

881
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,840
the conventional medicine alternative it

882
00:39:51,020 --> 00:39:48,480
won't do you any harm sounds too good to

883
00:39:53,980 --> 00:39:51,030
be true like many miracle cures in

884
00:39:56,690 --> 00:39:53,990
alternative medicine it just might be

885
00:39:58,940 --> 00:39:56,700
this week I tell you about the safe

886
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:58,950
breast cancer screening test your doctor

887
00:40:05,180 --> 00:40:01,200
isn't telling you about and this is

888
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:05,190
called thermography I refer to it as the

889
00:40:09,230 --> 00:40:07,170
safe breast cancer screening your doctor

890
00:40:10,970 --> 00:40:09,240
isn't telling you about because this was

891
00:40:13,970 --> 00:40:10,980
what popped up on Google when I searched

892
00:40:15,770 --> 00:40:13,980
for information on this topic clued up

893
00:40:17,570 --> 00:40:15,780
skeptics would know this is one of the

894
00:40:20,690 --> 00:40:17,580
classic red flags to alert you to

895
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:20,700
pseudoscience in fact it has been used

896
00:40:25,730 --> 00:40:22,650
in the title of just about every book

897
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:25,740
written by Kevin Trudeau the infomercial

898
00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:28,290
billionaire from the US who peddles all

899
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:30,420
kinds of fantastical products and has

900
00:40:35,330 --> 00:40:33,660
been fined for doing so so let's start

901
00:40:37,340 --> 00:40:35,340
with a little bit of information about

902
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:37,350
the problem that is breast cancer in

903
00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:40,740
Australia 1 in 11 women will be

904
00:40:45,830 --> 00:40:42,630
diagnosed with breast cancer before the

905
00:40:48,140 --> 00:40:45,840
age of 75 breast cancer is the most

906
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:48,150
common cause of cancer-related death in

907
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:51,210
women in Australia the incidence of

908
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:53,160
breast cancer has risen over eighteen

909
00:41:01,400 --> 00:40:57,810
percent from 1995 to 2005 and in

910
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:01,410
Australia in 2005 a total of twelve

911
00:41:06,350 --> 00:41:03,450
thousand one hundred and seventy women

912
00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:06,360
and ninety five men were diagnosed with

913
00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:08,040
breast cancer and there were two

914
00:41:14,810 --> 00:41:09,780
thousand six hundred and eighty three

915
00:41:17,210 --> 00:41:14,820
deaths so what is thermography while the

916
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:17,220
principle of medical thermography is the

917
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:18,810
detection of small temperature

918
00:41:23,450 --> 00:41:21,090
differences in the body which are then

919
00:41:26,420 --> 00:41:23,460
transformed into thermal images that the

920
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:26,430
practitioner interprets the theory is

921
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:29,010
that abnormalities such as malignancies

922
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:31,710
inflammation and infection amit

923
00:41:35,620 --> 00:41:34,050
increased heat that will appear as hot

924
00:41:38,330 --> 00:41:35,630
spots on the images

925
00:41:40,850 --> 00:41:38,340
breast thermography also known as

926
00:41:42,650 --> 00:41:40,860
thermal breast imaging is a technique

927
00:41:44,990 --> 00:41:42,660
that produces heat pictures of the

928
00:41:47,090 --> 00:41:45,000
breast by measuring the temperature of

929
00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:47,100
the skin and the rationale for

930
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:49,470
thermography and breast imaging is that

931
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:52,050
the skin overlying a breast cancer can

932
00:41:57,620 --> 00:41:53,490
be warmer than that of the surrounding

933
00:41:59,560 --> 00:41:57,630
area so what are some of the limits of

934
00:42:02,270 --> 00:41:59,570
thermography for breast cancer

935
00:42:04,460 --> 00:42:02,280
thermography is limited in that it only

936
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:04,470
indicates if a difference in temperature

937
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:07,050
exists and the diagnostic significance

938
00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:09,930
of this information remains unclear it

939
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:11,940
has not been proven that performing

940
00:42:17,150 --> 00:42:13,920
thermography can eliminate the need for

941
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:17,160
other diagnostic studies nor has it been

942
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:18,810
demonstrated that any additional

943
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:20,970
diagnostic value is provided by

944
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:24,480
thermography although thermography is a

945
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:27,570
non-invasive low-risk procedure several

946
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:29,250
disadvantages have prevented its

947
00:42:34,850 --> 00:42:32,880
widespread use it requires a tightly

948
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:34,860
controlled environment free from draft

949
00:42:40,820 --> 00:42:37,680
temperature fluctuation and humidity and

950
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:40,830
it also requires a 20 minute to two hour

951
00:42:48,620 --> 00:42:45,450
acclimatization period but does

952
00:42:50,810 --> 00:42:48,630
thermography detect breast cancers well

953
00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:50,820
in 2004 the New Zealand health

954
00:42:54,650 --> 00:42:52,520
technology assessment committee

955
00:42:57,380 --> 00:42:54,660
conducted a review of the scientific

956
00:42:59,180 --> 00:42:57,390
literature to establish the evidence for

957
00:43:02,270 --> 00:42:59,190
the efficacy of thermography as a

958
00:43:07,010 --> 00:43:02,280
screening tool and adjunctive diagnostic

959
00:43:09,460 --> 00:43:07,020
tool they scoured pubmed turning up 1154

960
00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:09,470
abstracts to match their search criteria

961
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:12,420
from which 85 were selected for full

962
00:43:18,740 --> 00:43:15,450
text analysis and three were used in the

963
00:43:20,270 --> 00:43:18,750
meta-analysis review they reported that

964
00:43:23,180 --> 00:43:20,280
the evidence that is currently available

965
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:23,190
does not provide enough support for the

966
00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:25,770
role of infrared thermography for either

967
00:43:30,050 --> 00:43:27,720
population screening or adjuvant

968
00:43:32,570 --> 00:43:30,060
diagnostic testing of breast cancer

969
00:43:34,910 --> 00:43:32,580
breast cancer South Australia is in

970
00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:34,920
agreement and publishes this statement

971
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:37,950
on their website quote according to

972
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:40,170
several reviews there is no current

973
00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:42,240
scientific evidence to support the use

974
00:43:47,390 --> 00:43:44,340
of thermography in the early detection

975
00:43:49,090 --> 00:43:47,400
of breast cancer or in the reduction of

976
00:43:51,980 --> 00:43:49,100
mortality from breast cancer

977
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:51,990
the results of thermography in various

978
00:43:57,290 --> 00:43:54,450
studies are inconsistent but overall

979
00:43:59,450 --> 00:43:57,300
thermography produces an abnormal result

980
00:44:01,970 --> 00:43:59,460
in too many women who do not have cancer

981
00:44:03,740 --> 00:44:01,980
and it misses cancers that are known to

982
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:03,750
be present in other women further

983
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:06,330
evidence for a lack of efficacy in

984
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:09,210
detecting breast cancers is a study that

985
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,040
showed that the detection rate with

986
00:44:15,620 --> 00:44:13,280
thermography was forty-two percent

987
00:44:19,310 --> 00:44:15,630
compared to ninety two percent from

988
00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:19,320
mammography using thermography with

989
00:44:25,220 --> 00:44:21,990
proven diagnostic measures adds no

990
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:25,230
useful clinical information the

991
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:27,210
scientific peer-reviewed literature and

992
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:29,250
professional societies do not support

993
00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:31,470
the use of thermography as a reliable

994
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:33,510
indicator for the presence of breast

995
00:44:39,020 --> 00:44:36,000
cancer further thermography of the

996
00:44:41,180 --> 00:44:39,030
breast is cumbersome and complicated so

997
00:44:42,830 --> 00:44:41,190
there is a high level of consistency in

998
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:42,840
the approach of numerous medical

999
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:44,910
organizations from Australia and abroad

1000
00:44:49,090 --> 00:44:46,800
in warning against the use of

1001
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:49,100
thermography for breast cancer detection

1002
00:44:54,410 --> 00:44:52,110
the following organizations support the

1003
00:44:56,090 --> 00:44:54,420
use of mammography and do not support

1004
00:44:59,060 --> 00:44:56,100
the use of thermography for breast

1005
00:45:02,500 --> 00:44:59,070
cancer detection and this list is valid

1006
00:45:05,690 --> 00:45:02,510
as at may 2007 breastscreen australia

1007
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:05,700
the National Breast Cancer Center the

1008
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:07,410
Royal College of radiologists of

1009
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:09,810
Australia and New Zealand the Australian

1010
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:12,480
Medical Association the American Medical

1011
00:45:19,010 --> 00:45:15,450
Association the American Cancer Society

1012
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:19,020
Cancer Research UK the Mayo Clinic in

1013
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:21,600
the US the Australian Therapeutic Goods

1014
00:45:27,230 --> 00:45:24,690
Administration and Medicare Australia

1015
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:27,240
not that this prevents the alternative

1016
00:45:31,610 --> 00:45:28,770
medicine guys from spruiking

1017
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:31,620
thermography anyway nevermind the pesky

1018
00:45:36,860 --> 00:45:34,410
scientific evidence one such case

1019
00:45:39,710 --> 00:45:36,870
occurred recently when Mike Adams from

1020
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:39,720
the website natural news reported on new

1021
00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:41,970
findings about the risks associated with

1022
00:45:47,540 --> 00:45:45,510
mammograms now no medical intervention

1023
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:47,550
is without risk and mammograms are no

1024
00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:49,680
exception since small doses of radiation

1025
00:45:55,370 --> 00:45:52,910
are used to image the breast tissue

1026
00:45:57,700 --> 00:45:55,380
several recent studies have shown that

1027
00:46:00,500 --> 00:45:57,710
for women at high risk for breast cancer

1028
00:46:02,370 --> 00:46:00,510
therefore getting early scans beginning

1029
00:46:04,350 --> 00:46:02,380
before the age of 30

1030
00:46:08,610 --> 00:46:04,360
can increase the risk of getting the

1031
00:46:10,980 --> 00:46:08,620
disease between 1.5 and 2.5 times for

1032
00:46:13,710 --> 00:46:10,990
this reason the US Department of Health

1033
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:13,720
and Human Services recently changed

1034
00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:15,810
their recommendations for mammograms

1035
00:46:20,250 --> 00:46:17,800
advising women that they should now be

1036
00:46:22,620 --> 00:46:20,260
started at age 50 and performed by

1037
00:46:24,990 --> 00:46:22,630
annually and this is up from the

1038
00:46:27,270 --> 00:46:25,000
previous recommendations of 40 years of

1039
00:46:32,220 --> 00:46:27,280
age now women who carry the genetic

1040
00:46:33,690 --> 00:46:32,230
mutations brca1 and brca2 have a sixty

1041
00:46:36,570 --> 00:46:33,700
percent chance of developing breast

1042
00:46:38,850 --> 00:46:36,580
cancer over their lifetime so regular

1043
00:46:41,850 --> 00:46:38,860
screening at a young age is important

1044
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:41,860
the authors of one such study suggested

1045
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:43,630
these women would be better off getting

1046
00:46:49,830 --> 00:46:46,570
MRIs or ultrasound scans to reduce their

1047
00:46:52,740 --> 00:46:49,840
risk Mike Adams on natural news reported

1048
00:46:55,110 --> 00:46:52,750
these findings as quote study verifies

1049
00:46:56,850 --> 00:46:55,120
mammography screenings cause cancer

1050
00:46:58,800 --> 00:46:56,860
which of course is a completely

1051
00:47:02,220 --> 00:46:58,810
misleading interpretation of the

1052
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:02,230
findings to reiterate they may increase

1053
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:05,680
the risk by as much as 2.5 fold but they

1054
00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:08,890
do not cause cancer so if you are

1055
00:47:13,230 --> 00:47:10,420
unlucky enough to have the double

1056
00:47:15,210 --> 00:47:13,240
mutation and have a sixty percent chance

1057
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:15,220
of getting breast cancer with the

1058
00:47:19,410 --> 00:47:17,710
increased risk from mammograms you would

1059
00:47:21,990 --> 00:47:19,420
have a ninety percent chance of

1060
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,000
contracting the disease this is not very

1061
00:47:26,580 --> 00:47:24,400
good odds which is why many such women

1062
00:47:29,550 --> 00:47:26,590
who have this mutation get double

1063
00:47:32,310 --> 00:47:29,560
mastectomy Mike then proposed that women

1064
00:47:34,980 --> 00:47:32,320
get MRIs or thermography instead of

1065
00:47:37,470 --> 00:47:34,990
mammograms well thanks for the medical

1066
00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:37,480
advice Mike this is despite the fact

1067
00:47:41,970 --> 00:47:39,280
that the authors of this study did not

1068
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:41,980
mention thermography in line with the

1069
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:44,410
unreliability of thermography breast

1070
00:47:48,990 --> 00:47:46,480
green Australia has published a position

1071
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:49,000
statement on their website stating the

1072
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:51,010
national advisory committee to the

1073
00:47:55,650 --> 00:47:53,290
breastscreen australia program does not

1074
00:47:57,720 --> 00:47:55,660
recommend the use of thermography for

1075
00:48:00,110 --> 00:47:57,730
the early detection of breast cancer and

1076
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:00,120
this is for the following reasons

1077
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:02,650
studies have shown that a tumor has to

1078
00:48:07,710 --> 00:48:05,410
be large about several centimeters in

1079
00:48:10,530 --> 00:48:07,720
diameter before it can be detected by

1080
00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:10,540
thermography and screening mammograms

1081
00:48:15,570 --> 00:48:12,430
have the ability to detect breast cancer

1082
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:15,580
at a much smaller size and therefore to

1083
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:16,210
reduce

1084
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:18,640
deaths from breast cancer less than

1085
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:20,410
fifty percent of breast cancers detected

1086
00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:22,450
by mammography screening have an

1087
00:48:27,329 --> 00:48:25,390
abnormal thermogram thermography was

1088
00:48:30,420 --> 00:48:27,339
also cited in a recent parliamentary

1089
00:48:32,550 --> 00:48:30,430
inquiry in South Australia into what the

1090
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:32,560
Australian Medical Association called

1091
00:48:38,490 --> 00:48:36,490
bogus therapies along with claims made

1092
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:38,500
by some chiropractors about subluxation

1093
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:41,440
zeeeee cures for cancer and some

1094
00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:44,800
erectile dysfunction treatments the AMA

1095
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:47,470
has concerns about quackery telling the

1096
00:48:53,250 --> 00:48:50,170
inquiry that unregulated practitioners

1097
00:48:55,260 --> 00:48:53,260
quote relative risk to patient health

1098
00:48:57,390 --> 00:48:55,270
and have enjoyed immunity and lack of

1099
00:49:00,089 --> 00:48:57,400
scrutiny from the legal and regulatory

1100
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:00,099
authorities which apply to the medical

1101
00:49:05,099 --> 00:49:02,170
profession so what's the take home

1102
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:05,109
message about thermography the take home

1103
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:06,730
message is that thermography is

1104
00:49:13,290 --> 00:49:09,609
unreliable missing knowin cancers and

1105
00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:13,300
diagnosing non-existent cancers and also

1106
00:49:18,510 --> 00:49:16,030
it's pretty expensive at around 200 u.s.

1107
00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:18,520
dollars per screening but don't take my

1108
00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:20,710
advice or that of Mike Adams from

1109
00:49:25,050 --> 00:49:23,710
natural news talk to your doctor and if

1110
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:25,060
you'd like more information about

1111
00:49:30,210 --> 00:49:27,010
thermography and the references from

1112
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:30,220
today's show please head to skeptics on

1113
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:33,599
wordpress com and click on my blog and

1114
00:49:44,930 --> 00:49:36,640
until next time this has been dr. HG

1115
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:47,550
let me ask you now you've had your bent

1116
00:49:50,970 --> 00:49:49,510
spoon Awards I've heard Glenn talking

1117
00:49:54,420 --> 00:49:50,980
about this but they've actually happened

1118
00:49:57,180 --> 00:49:54,430
last weekend in Brisbane ok and this is

1119
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:57,190
all about what this is well we it's you

1120
00:50:00,090 --> 00:49:58,450
might have heard of the choice they give

1121
00:50:04,050 --> 00:50:00,100
their shonky Awards the Australian

1122
00:50:06,510 --> 00:50:04,060
skeptics give now since 1982 the bent

1123
00:50:08,490 --> 00:50:06,520
spoon which is awarded to the greatest

1124
00:50:11,070 --> 00:50:08,500
perpetrator of paranormal or pseudo

1125
00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:11,080
scientific piffle in Arcadian all right

1126
00:50:15,630 --> 00:50:13,510
who was the winner for 2009 the winner

1127
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:15,640
for 2009 is a lady by the name of

1128
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:17,770
merrill dory who is the head of the

1129
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:20,530
australian vaccination network which

1130
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:23,050
despite its name is dead against

1131
00:50:27,180 --> 00:50:25,210
vaccination anti-vaccination they are an

1132
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:27,190
TV this is this is a hot debate and

1133
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:29,110
Rachel you guide this full well I mean

1134
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:30,640
this is something that's been fought out

1135
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:32,170
for many many years now I mean it is

1136
00:50:37,770 --> 00:50:34,690
there a set viewpoint that that most

1137
00:50:39,330 --> 00:50:37,780
medicos are on asset side oh well

1138
00:50:41,010 --> 00:50:39,340
there's first of all Ben there's not

1139
00:50:43,230 --> 00:50:41,020
really a debate it's kind of been

1140
00:50:45,690 --> 00:50:43,240
manufactured by the anti-vaccine because

1141
00:50:48,210 --> 00:50:45,700
the evidence is very clear that the

1142
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:48,220
benefits of vaccination far outweigh the

1143
00:50:53,220 --> 00:50:50,970
risks associated with the disease and

1144
00:50:54,690 --> 00:50:53,230
it's the only the anti-vaxxers that

1145
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:54,700
stayed as a debate there's no debate

1146
00:50:58,980 --> 00:50:57,280
well they've done well because someone

1147
00:51:01,110 --> 00:50:58,990
like me who doesn't have children and

1148
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:01,120
all I hear about is the vaccination

1149
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:03,760
debate you know I and well it's like the

1150
00:51:06,930 --> 00:51:05,410
creation is saying there's a debate

1151
00:51:08,850 --> 00:51:06,940
about the age of the earth no there's

1152
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:08,860
not but if they keep saying there is a

1153
00:51:13,350 --> 00:51:10,330
lot of people say oh is there really a

1154
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:13,360
debate about that hmm now I had a guy or

1155
00:51:16,620 --> 00:51:14,410
I'll come to that in the seconds until

1156
00:51:19,770 --> 00:51:16,630
me out when someone wins the bent spoon

1157
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:19,780
or do they turn up to receive it no in

1158
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:21,880
the whole history of the bent spoon no

1159
00:51:24,690 --> 00:51:23,200
one's ever turned up into receipt

1160
00:51:26,190 --> 00:51:24,700
although to be fair we don't generally

1161
00:51:27,870 --> 00:51:26,200
invite them because we generally don't

1162
00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:27,880
they generally wouldn't say they want to

1163
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:30,190
come anyway it's a dubious honor it's

1164
00:51:33,780 --> 00:51:31,510
not something to be proud of did I

1165
00:51:36,300 --> 00:51:33,790
actually get a bent spoon we could

1166
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:36,310
probably bend a tablespoon cynicism I

1167
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:37,570
don't know I'm skeptical maybe they

1168
00:51:41,790 --> 00:51:39,040
could bend their own soon that would be

1169
00:51:43,860 --> 00:51:41,800
better so okay so the message out of

1170
00:51:46,110 --> 00:51:43,870
this whole thing is vaccinate oh yeah

1171
00:51:48,390 --> 00:51:46,120
we're firmly for that opinion vaccinate

1172
00:51:50,570 --> 00:51:48,400
because apart from anything else some of

1173
00:51:51,740 --> 00:51:50,580
the things that the the anti-vaccine

1174
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:51,750
archer

1175
00:51:55,460 --> 00:51:53,850
bizarre aren't they Rachel absolutely

1176
00:51:56,950 --> 00:51:55,470
they you mentioned conspiracy theories

1177
00:51:59,090 --> 00:51:56,960
before Ben they've got some fantastic

1178
00:52:02,180 --> 00:51:59,100
conspiracy theories that they subscribe

1179
00:52:03,970 --> 00:52:02,190
to the first one is that the government

1180
00:52:06,260 --> 00:52:03,980
is run by big pharmaceutical companies

1181
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:06,270
that all doctors are paid by big

1182
00:52:10,190 --> 00:52:07,890
pharmaceutical companies so you can't

1183
00:52:11,810 --> 00:52:10,200
trust them but there's this fantastic

1184
00:52:15,550 --> 00:52:11,820
one that they've just started to sort of

1185
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:15,560
publicize which is that the swine flu

1186
00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:18,240
epidemic was manufactured in a

1187
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:20,400
laboratory and it's actually been

1188
00:52:25,310 --> 00:52:23,280
designed by the Illuminati who are

1189
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:25,320
releasing it upon the population as an

1190
00:52:30,170 --> 00:52:28,170
attempt to commit mass genocide where do

1191
00:52:32,180 --> 00:52:30,180
people find all this time to come up

1192
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:32,190
with these theories well under I don't

1193
00:52:35,450 --> 00:52:33,570
know but the other thing is there

1194
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,460
actually are saying that the vaccination

1195
00:52:39,590 --> 00:52:37,200
against the swine flu contains a

1196
00:52:42,260 --> 00:52:39,600
mind-control chip so that the government

1197
00:52:44,030 --> 00:52:42,270
and the Illuminati can control people

1198
00:52:46,340 --> 00:52:44,040
and these people are advising parents

1199
00:52:48,110 --> 00:52:46,350
about their lair I love I mean that's a

1200
00:52:50,210 --> 00:52:48,120
classic one too isn't it just that idea

1201
00:52:51,650 --> 00:52:50,220
of I mean I know people talk about Big

1202
00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:51,660
Brother and they're watching but I've

1203
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:53,310
had so many people try and convince me

1204
00:52:57,110 --> 00:52:55,440
that you know the government wants to

1205
00:52:59,450 --> 00:52:57,120
watch your every move and I say looked

1206
00:53:02,000 --> 00:52:59,460
seriously my every move is not that

1207
00:53:04,460 --> 00:53:02,010
interesting I'm just not convinced that

1208
00:53:06,590 --> 00:53:04,470
they have the time or the the interest

1209
00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:06,600
in following my every move the sad thing

1210
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:08,760
about these people despite their wacky

1211
00:53:12,380 --> 00:53:10,290
conspiracy theories they actually are

1212
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:12,390
having an effect and there are certain

1213
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:13,680
pockets of this country where the

1214
00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:15,570
vaccination level has dropped because

1215
00:53:18,860 --> 00:53:17,670
parents are scared they really think

1216
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:18,870
that if they give their babies

1217
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:21,330
vaccinations they could get autism or

1218
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:23,010
all sorts of weird diseases or increase

1219
00:53:27,650 --> 00:53:26,160
cot death it's just it's really sad a

1220
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:27,660
really sad state of affairs it's funny

1221
00:53:30,770 --> 00:53:29,130
how these things catch on to and I've

1222
00:53:32,510 --> 00:53:30,780
just noticed I'm just opening the daily

1223
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:32,520
telegraph from today because I noticed

1224
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:34,800
here in the Telegraph today that they've

1225
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:36,930
actually started a new series I don't

1226
00:53:40,610 --> 00:53:38,010
know whether you can hear these pages

1227
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:40,620
turning God turn the mini ladder they've

1228
00:53:45,140 --> 00:53:42,720
started a new series called Mythbusters

1229
00:53:47,290 --> 00:53:45,150
oh really I know yeah that started today

1230
00:53:50,210 --> 00:53:47,300
in The Daily Telegraph John Rolfe

1231
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:50,220
Mythbusters and it's a new series in the

1232
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:53,610
first myth it says the myth McDonald's

1233
00:54:01,900 --> 00:53:59,040
secretly uses chochos in a saw to cut

1234
00:54:04,329 --> 00:54:01,910
costs that's a very efficient

1235
00:54:06,430 --> 00:54:04,339
you know but the point is not actually

1236
00:54:08,859 --> 00:54:06,440
necessarily the the seriousness of the

1237
00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:08,869
issue but how these things catch on and

1238
00:54:13,029 --> 00:54:10,880
he makes the point in this story that it

1239
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:13,039
caught on it and that the argument was

1240
00:54:17,289 --> 00:54:14,690
well because they're cheaper well guess

1241
00:54:18,940 --> 00:54:17,299
what they're not so he said we'll hang

1242
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:18,950
on yeah first of all he went to the

1243
00:54:23,049 --> 00:54:21,650
factory where the apples are made and he

1244
00:54:24,609 --> 00:54:23,059
followed the whole process through and

1245
00:54:26,589 --> 00:54:24,619
then on the the whole argument is based

1246
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:26,599
on then what show goes in because

1247
00:54:29,020 --> 00:54:27,680
they're cheaper and then he's gone and

1248
00:54:30,460 --> 00:54:29,030
discovered know the chokers are more

1249
00:54:32,950 --> 00:54:30,470
expensive and they actually call

1250
00:54:34,329 --> 00:54:32,960
themselves Mythbusters yeah well I think

1251
00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:34,339
that's nothing that's fair enough in

1252
00:54:39,039 --> 00:54:36,710
terms of if something gained so much

1253
00:54:41,529 --> 00:54:39,049
momentum and we all just come to believe

1254
00:54:43,390 --> 00:54:41,539
it well I've met Adam Savage from this

1255
00:54:45,190 --> 00:54:43,400
but Mythbusters a couple of times in

1256
00:54:47,049 --> 00:54:45,200
international conventions I might have a

1257
00:54:50,349 --> 00:54:47,059
word to him hmm I'm just using their

1258
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:50,359
name I'll be right who knows now I want

1259
00:54:56,170 --> 00:54:53,359
to take an issue up with you guys to do

1260
00:54:59,440 --> 00:54:56,180
with ghosts okay oh because I heard you

1261
00:55:02,770 --> 00:54:59,450
make a comment recently oh that ghosts

1262
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:02,780
don't exist we wouldn't know that what

1263
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:04,640
we would say is the evidence for them

1264
00:55:10,900 --> 00:55:07,520
existing is really crummy yeah because

1265
00:55:12,670 --> 00:55:10,910
we can't say ghosts don't exist mmm cuz

1266
00:55:14,769 --> 00:55:12,680
we didn't design that the universe and

1267
00:55:17,109 --> 00:55:14,779
all that goes white possible that ghosts

1268
00:55:18,460 --> 00:55:17,119
exist it's incredibly unlikely but we

1269
00:55:20,980 --> 00:55:18,470
can't rule it out we can't rule out that

1270
00:55:22,660 --> 00:55:20,990
there's a Barbie doll on Mars either see

1271
00:55:24,670 --> 00:55:22,670
what I mean okay well I've got a little

1272
00:55:26,799 --> 00:55:24,680
story are you having nice story for

1273
00:55:28,510 --> 00:55:26,809
gotta go Centauri know and this is this

1274
00:55:30,279 --> 00:55:28,520
is fair dinkum it's quite a serious one

1275
00:55:34,359 --> 00:55:30,289
too but we are gonna take a very quick

1276
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:34,369
break if you've got a ghost story don't

1277
00:55:38,980 --> 00:55:37,130
laugh why you're like I wanna go look

1278
00:55:41,380 --> 00:55:38,990
saying is go on notice when I said if

1279
00:55:43,089 --> 00:55:41,390
you gotta go story they both laughed you

1280
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:43,099
know how cynical what you should cuz

1281
00:55:46,089 --> 00:55:44,569
they're skeptic because they're fun

1282
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:46,099
ghost stories are really fun we love

1283
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:47,569
hearing about guys sorry this is a

1284
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:49,910
serious one like a man on a very serious

1285
00:55:55,269 --> 00:55:53,210
bender mr. tick who we are with dr.

1286
00:55:57,490 --> 00:55:55,279
Rachel Dunlop and also Richard Saunders

1287
00:55:59,950 --> 00:55:57,500
who have presented me with my my own

1288
00:56:02,410 --> 00:55:59,960
Australian skeptics mug thank you very

1289
00:56:04,990 --> 00:56:02,420
much my pleasure yeah well okay here's

1290
00:56:09,220 --> 00:56:05,000
my ghost story oh I actually have not

1291
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:09,230
seen a ghost however my grandfather's 90

1292
00:56:12,450 --> 00:56:12,170
years of age lives down in Wollongong he

1293
00:56:14,970 --> 00:56:12,460
is

1294
00:56:17,250 --> 00:56:14,980
the last bloke in the world you can

1295
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:17,260
imagine this guy's been he's fought wars

1296
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:20,530
he's been in New Guinea 1943 1944 he's

1297
00:56:24,839 --> 00:56:22,330
lived an extraordinary life and he's in

1298
00:56:27,450 --> 00:56:24,849
the last guy in the world who's going to

1299
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:27,460
believe in ghosts a few years after mine

1300
00:56:31,980 --> 00:56:29,650
and I'd he's sitting down on the couch

1301
00:56:33,450 --> 00:56:31,990
watching the cricket and then all of a

1302
00:56:37,099 --> 00:56:33,460
sudden standing right next to the

1303
00:56:40,290 --> 00:56:37,109
television is my grandmother Vera

1304
00:56:42,780 --> 00:56:40,300
looking the way she was just before she

1305
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:42,790
died however with her hairstyle done the

1306
00:56:47,790 --> 00:56:45,609
way she wore it when she was say 20 or

1307
00:56:50,490 --> 00:56:47,800
so years old when he met her so much

1308
00:56:53,730 --> 00:56:50,500
detail and then he stood up walked

1309
00:56:56,010 --> 00:56:53,740
towards her she disappeared and he says

1310
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:56,020
to me I look as why would I make this up

1311
00:57:00,990 --> 00:56:57,810
war would I make up a story like that

1312
00:57:02,820 --> 00:57:01,000
please explain all right lane that

1313
00:57:05,339 --> 00:57:02,830
skeptic explain that skeptic we get that

1314
00:57:07,470 --> 00:57:05,349
all the time first of all you're

1315
00:57:10,620 --> 00:57:07,480
relating a story to me I wasn't there

1316
00:57:12,510 --> 00:57:10,630
you were there I was not always ok so

1317
00:57:14,490 --> 00:57:12,520
what you're getting is his recollection

1318
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:14,500
of something he thinks happened all

1319
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:16,710
right there's two explanations one is

1320
00:57:20,730 --> 00:57:19,450
what I think is most likely he's having

1321
00:57:22,410 --> 00:57:20,740
a little nap having a little bit of a

1322
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:22,420
doze and old memories are coming back

1323
00:57:27,089 --> 00:57:25,089
quite vivid absolutely vivid can't tell

1324
00:57:29,730 --> 00:57:27,099
the difference you know fine that's the

1325
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:29,740
first reason the second one would be it

1326
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:32,050
was a ghost now when we have those two

1327
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:35,530
competing reasons we as skeptics are

1328
00:57:39,180 --> 00:57:36,970
going to naturally fall upon the one

1329
00:57:40,980 --> 00:57:39,190
which is the most likely um he's

1330
00:57:44,430 --> 00:57:40,990
probably just you know had a little

1331
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:44,440
dream and saw his wife mm-hmm so he most

1332
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:46,089
likely wouldn't have made it up and

1333
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:47,770
we're not suggesting for no he's having

1334
00:57:53,460 --> 00:57:50,170
a go he would really have believed that

1335
00:57:56,700 --> 00:57:53,470
mmm yeah died he was saying things most

1336
00:57:58,140 --> 00:57:56,710
probably yeah Roger not differently yeah

1337
00:57:59,880 --> 00:57:58,150
I'd agree with Richard but the the

1338
00:58:01,589 --> 00:57:59,890
problem with those kind of stories is

1339
00:58:03,420 --> 00:58:01,599
yeah that's not that's anecdotal

1340
00:58:06,180 --> 00:58:03,430
evidence so there was no way to measure

1341
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:06,190
that and there's not enough scientific

1342
00:58:12,270 --> 00:58:08,530
evidence yet to demonstrate that ghosts

1343
00:58:14,130 --> 00:58:12,280
exist I we've done a lot of ghosts sort

1344
00:58:15,690 --> 00:58:14,140
of investigations where they run away

1345
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:15,700
when we come for some what they do they

1346
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:17,890
tend to do that so we will go to haunted

1347
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:20,050
houses that are apparently haunted we

1348
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:22,330
will you know stay there and see if we

1349
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:24,000
can find anything and we've never had

1350
00:58:28,340 --> 00:58:26,490
so unfortunately the only evidence that

1351
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:28,350
there is around is stories like that and

1352
00:58:32,540 --> 00:58:29,970
that's a story that's all it really is

1353
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:32,550
yeah very hard to convince a guy 90

1354
00:58:38,210 --> 00:58:35,610
years of age and in any very very sharp

1355
00:58:40,130 --> 00:58:38,220
mind no absolutely hard to convince a

1356
00:58:41,810 --> 00:58:40,140
guy like that who doesn't buy and do

1357
00:58:43,220 --> 00:58:41,820
anything I mean it's the last guy you're

1358
00:58:45,620 --> 00:58:43,230
going to be on the committee is human

1359
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:45,630
like the rest of us and we all including

1360
00:58:50,030 --> 00:58:47,910
the skeptics everybody can be deceived

1361
00:58:52,010 --> 00:58:50,040
and we can make an error trick

1362
00:58:54,290 --> 00:58:52,020
themselves sometimes I suppose apply

1363
00:58:56,030 --> 00:58:54,300
poses has been married for 50 years and

1364
00:58:58,160 --> 00:58:56,040
lost his wife is probably going to want

1365
00:59:01,160 --> 00:58:58,170
to see her in a way to ya and why not

1366
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:01,170
he's entitled to that in so I Jose

1367
00:59:06,950 --> 00:59:03,930
online I think online to I believe Joey

1368
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:06,960
you there hi a guy good you've got a

1369
00:59:10,340 --> 00:59:08,610
question for our skeptics Rachel and

1370
00:59:12,170 --> 00:59:10,350
Richard I'm not a question i actually

1371
00:59:14,770 --> 00:59:12,180
just wanted to support what they're

1372
00:59:17,570 --> 00:59:14,780
saying about the vaccination issue

1373
00:59:19,870 --> 00:59:17,580
specifically some of the things that

1374
00:59:23,060 --> 00:59:19,880
i've come across in my work seeing

1375
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:23,070
patients and colleagues and people are

1376
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:24,690
very confused about the issue because of

1377
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:26,690
what they see presented in the media and

1378
00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:29,730
things that people like Meryl zori talk

1379
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:32,640
about and the fact that it creates a lot

1380
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,450
of confusion for the general public and

1381
00:59:39,350 --> 00:59:37,440
really the only people they should be

1382
00:59:43,250 --> 00:59:39,360
talking to about the issue is their

1383
00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:43,260
doctors hmm good point Joe absolutely

1384
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:45,510
you're on board Joe I absolutely on

1385
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:48,930
board okay do you believe in ghosts well

1386
00:59:53,870 --> 00:59:51,510
as rich and Rachel have said when the

1387
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:53,880
evidence presents itself that um that

1388
00:59:57,980 --> 00:59:55,770
shows me that they existed I might

1389
01:00:05,309 --> 00:59:57,990
believe in them thank you for on thank

1390
01:00:10,180 --> 01:00:08,140
thank you for joining me for the skeptic

1391
01:00:12,609 --> 01:00:10,190
zone now the next three weeks we've got

1392
01:00:14,109 --> 01:00:12,619
our sort of a summer series or a winter

1393
01:00:15,220 --> 01:00:14,119
series depending on where you are in the

1394
01:00:17,950 --> 01:00:15,230
world with lots of interesting

1395
01:00:20,349 --> 01:00:17,960
interviews and snippets from past

1396
01:00:22,510 --> 01:00:20,359
conventions and bits and pieces to get

1397
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:22,520
you through those long winter nights all

1398
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:24,770
those short summer nights or whatever

1399
01:00:30,069 --> 01:00:27,710
the case may be so until next week

1400
01:00:35,470 --> 01:00:30,079
anyway this is Richard Saunders signing

1401
01:00:37,779 --> 01:00:35,480
off from Sydney Australia you've been

1402
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:37,789
listening to the skeptic zone visit our

1403
01:00:47,090 --> 01:00:42,890
website at WWF digs on TV for comments

1404
01:00:59,050 --> 01:00:47,100
contacts and extra video reports